Using WCS/Tplane and no 4th axis output.

[kunfuzed]

And I'm back...

 

Scratch that last post, machine DOES NOT like it when there is no 4th axis mounted.

 

Now, those of you that have posts that handle the WCS/Tplane logic to decide between 3 and 4 axis output... What happens on a rotary program when the first toolpath is at A0, and A0 is both a toolplane, and the WCS? Does that make since? According to what ive been reading, it seems like it would see it as a 3 axis wiht no rotation.

 

Thanks.

[Mr. Wizzard]

I haven't had to use it in a while, but I see what you're saying. If i remember correctly, it will post out an A0. move if it sees other rotations somewhere in the program. If there aren't any, try this:

Copy your top T-plane and use that as your A0. T-plane in the plane parameters of the toolpath. Maybe it will post the A0 move then.

Just a thought.....

[Mr. Wizzard]

scratch that, no A output. I have another suggestion. I just drilled 3 holes in top plant MPMaster 4-axis. It's set to VMC, question 164 is Y. Straight up top WCS, C-plane, T-plane. That gives not A output. If you want to force the A0 just to make sure you get it, try this:

 

In the toolpath parameters, go to Axis Control >>> Rotary Axis Control >>>>> click on Rotary axis positioning under Rotation Type.

 

That gave me the same posted code, but with an A0 in the first line of rapid positioning. That should force it for you. I know i've had problems in the past with no A output. Code would be fine if all toolpaths were posted, but one by itself at A0 would have not A-axis output. This might be the way you're supposed to do it. Looks like I may have learned something else by accident today.

 

Give it a shot and post the desired toolpaths alone to see if it's forcing it for you.

[kunfuzed]

Yeah, I get what your saying. Those posts must do some sort of a pre-read. Guess I should just download the MPmaster and do a little copy-paste, though it would be way more fun to figure out on my own.

[kunfuzed]

Did you try "tricking" it with a copied tplane of A0 as your WCS?

[Mr. Wizzard]

If you try the Rotary Axis Control thing first, your post might work that way already. If not, the MPMaster is very good and you might want to go that way anyhow.

 

Good luck.

[Mr. Wizzard]

Did you try "tricking" it with a copied tplane of A0 as your WCS?

 

yeah, tried that first and no go.

[Mr. Wizzard]

What's your machine and how's it set up, VMC or HMC?

 

Shouldn't really matter, just curious.

[kunfuzed]

Our post is based off the Generic Haas 4x. VMC.

[Paul Decelles]

I would recommend creating two axis combinations in the Machine Definition; one that includes a rotary axis and one that does not. This will allow you to select when you desire A output and when you do not in each operation.

[kunfuzed]

Hey Paul! This is Chris. I was in the class last week at Cimtech.

 

You touched on this a little last week, but I think I misunderstood it. But now I think i've got it! I could have the Machine def default to 3 axis, and then just change the axis combo to 4 in the "local copy" of the def?

 

Thanks, I'm going to try that!

[Newbeeee™]

I've just read through all this - very interesting.

But what is the difference between having 2x mach defs, or having to answer a question on whether you want A output or not?

I mean you still have to remember to change your machine def to be the correct one before posting surely?

 

We have our post setup to prompt for rotary, and have never had a problem (famous last words now )

We have 4x vertical machines and 3x types of rotaries (2 with axis brakes, 1x without), which can go on any machine.

The post asks

Rotary Output 0=No / 1=Index Only / 2=Index+LockCodes / 3=Simultaneous

0 is the default, so for 3x axis work we just hit enter and it posts.

This gives us the best flexibility but we are a small shop.

[kunfuzed]

But what is the difference between having 2x mach defs, or having to answer a question on whether you want A output or not?

 

I would be fine with 2 defs, but managment would prefer one for simpler "doc control", since we are AS9100 certified now. Basically, if they change something in one, they don't want to have to remember, or possibly forget to change it in the other. But if it cant be done, it cant be done and they'll have to deal with that.

 

The problem with the prompt questions in our shop is occasionally a programer will forget to output rotary when making a change to a running program, and some idiot operator wont pay attention and then scrap a part... or two!!!! If you can believe that, lol!

If you have separate defs you DO have to remember to pick the right one... but only once.

[K2csq7]

If you have separate defs you DO have to remember to pick the right one

 

What if you pick the wrong one? Where is the "Check"? I can still see a large opportunity for problems.

 

Maybe an better and easier (don't have to learn or implement anything new ) solution is to keep the system you have, but just make the question default to 4 axis output.... that way the WORST that can happen is an error at the machine.

[Mr. Wizzard]

Like i tried before, if you want the A output, just set it in Rotary Axis Control parameters. You don't have to mess with posts, or Machines, or anything else. If this is how it's designed to handle these situations, it seems pretty simple for a fix to me. If it's not designed to work this way and it's only a fluke, my apologies.

 

If CNC Software could chime in on what i tried, it would be helpful for a solution. Like i said, it seems to work and do what you need, but I can't verify that it's the correct way to do it, but it does seem like the quickest, easiest solution. If the output is reliable, roll with it. I'm most certainly going to set mine that way from now on, to make sure i get an A0. when there is no other rotations selected.

 

Just a thought, might help hopefully.

[kunfuzed]

Like i tried before, if you want the A output, just set it in Rotary Axis Control parameters. You don't have to mess with posts, or Machines, or anything else.

 

I like that, except its something to have to set on every toolpath.

 

What if you pick the wrong one? Where is the "Check"? I can still see a large opportunity for problems.

 

If the wrong one is picked, it should get caught on the first prove out. After that it's set and done, one problem eliminated during reposting. The problem is when changes are made and reposted on a running job. The programmer may be making a simple feed change and the operator isn't thinking there will be any motion changes. Not a good excuse... but still happens.

 

I think I'm going to go with either 2 defs and 1 post, or 1 def 1 post and use axis combos... if I can just select the combo once in the mcx file.

 

 

Thanks for the input so far guys!

[K2csq7]

If the wrong one is picked, it should get caught on the first prove out.

 

and some idiot operator wont pay attention and then scrap a part... or two!!!!

 

 

if I can just select the combo once in the mcx file.

 

It can be different for each operation...

[Mr. Wizzard]

Ever feel like your chasing your tail?

[kunfuzed]

Right now i could use the old :HEADBANG: ....

 

[kunfuzed]

Ok, here's where I've ended up. The best solution I've come up with for our shop is one 4x Machine Def with one 3x Axis Combo. This way it will basically default to 3x for 90% of our stuff, and when 4x is desired you edit the local copy and "Check" the rotary and work holding fixture in the Axis Combo. More steps than just hitting "Y" for rotary... but you only have to do it once instead of every time you post.

 

... comments?

[Mr. Wizzard]

that seems like a pretty simple solution. The only other safety check i can think of is adding an alert to the post so it states at the top whether you have it set for 3-axis output or 4-axis. Then, you'd know and the operator would know right up front what it's posted for.

[Guest]

In these situations, I add a switch to the post, it asks during the posting sysle if this is 3 or 4 axis, depending on the answer, you gets A output or you don't/

 

 

Linky

[Newbeeee™]

One for the guru's

Can a buffer be added to your post to automatically scan the nci for A moves, and in particular any differences?

So if A0 is set for all operations (no movement), then nothing happens*.

If A0 is then followed by A90 (or whatever index in the program), then the post outputs with the A moves included?

 

* Nothing happens means the post just outputs normally with no A output.

[kunfuzed]

I thought about doing that, but decided just "checking" the A axis in the Axis Combo in the local Machine def would be easier.

 

I've heard too if you start trying to make the post do "too much" thinking for you, you can run into problems.

 

 

Thanks John, but that's actually how our post is set up right now. Earlier in this thread I pointed out how a combination of the programmer forgetting to hit yes to rotary, and an ignorant operator at the machine, can scrap parts. Mostly on running programs where changes are being made on the fly. I was looking for a "set and forget" solution, utilizing one machine def and post. Thanks though.